Season 6, Episode 2: Entrepreneurship & Neurodivergence with Dr Hayley Kelly
This week Monique chats with Dr. Hayley Kelly about entrepreneurship.
Hayley is a clinical psychologist, CEO, and Founder of Therapists Rising. Her goal is to transform the mental health landscape by helping therapists build sustainable and impactful businesses. Diagnosed with Autism and ADHD later in life, she brings a unique, neuroaffirming approach to entrepreneurship, inspiring mental health professionals to embrace innovation, creativity, and resilience in their practices.
This episode is jammed with incredible insights on how to leverage your neurodivergent strengths as a business owner – it’s a must-listen for any ND folks thinking of launching themselves into the world of entrepreneurship and business ownership (or for those who are there already!).
In this episode, Monique and Hayley cover:
Introduction: Hayley’s conceptualisation of neurodivergence and the identity shifts she experienced through late diagnosis
How Hayley’s knowledge of her own neurodivergence helped her to understand the past challenges as well as the strengths she’d experienced in the workforce over her career
The strengths of ADHD in entrepreneurship and business ownership
Strategies for managing rejection sensitivity and feeling like an imposter in this space
Strengths of the Autistic brain, and the AuDHD brain, in entrepreneurship and business ownership
Hayley’s tips for neurodivergent folk working in (or moving toward) this space
Closing: Stories that show how Hayley's brain works
[00:01:13] Introduction: Hayley’s conceptualisation of neurodivergence and the identity shifts she experienced through late diagnosis.
Key Takeaways:
For Hayley, neurodivergence embodies the beautiful diversity of human thought, processing, and experience, challenging the idea that there is one "correct" way of being in the world.
While she once viewed her differences as deficits, she now sees them as sources of strength and creativity, emphasising the importance of creating spaces where diverse minds can thrive. Embracing and celebrating neurodivergence allows for unique contributions in both personal and professional settings.
Receiving a late diagnosis at 38 led to a significant shift in Hayley’s identity, helping her reframe lifelong feelings of being different and questioning herself.
Like many women, Hayley came to her diagnosis through her family—her husband and son—emphasising how gender bias in diagnostic criteria has led to many women being missed during earlier life stages.
Post-diagnosis, Hayley experienced profound relief and understanding but also feelings of grief and anger for the younger version of herself who didn’t have the answers or supports she could’ve had. These emotions reflect the journey many late-diagnosed individuals go through.
“One of the big emotions that I felt in that immediate post-diagnosis was anger. I just felt so angry. I felt so angry. I felt so much grief for that young person who had to go through life in the way that I did without any context for why these things were happening to her. I honestly felt massive amounts of grief, sympathy, and empathy for this young person trying to navigate life without all of the answers that she needed.”
All in all, Hayley’s diagnosis was deeply empowering, enabling her to embrace her authentic self and make choices that align with her strengths and natural tendencies.
Monique highlights how many late-diagnosed individuals, especially women, often recognise early on that they are different but don’t understand why.
This lack of understanding creates space for self-blame, with many resonating with feelings of grief and anger for not receiving the answers and supports needed to understand their neurodivergence earlier in life.
The longer someone goes without understanding their neurodivergence, the more deeply ingrained their self-perceptions become, making emotional processing more complex.
Monique hopes neurodivergence in women and AFAB becomes more easily recognised without men being the gateway to understanding their own experiences, as has been the case for far too long.
Hayley agrees, further detailing the complexity for women also coming from the exacerbation of their often ‘ADHD-Autistic type’ of presentations, traits, and characteristics, as well as being exacerbated by perimenopause and menopause. This could become a huge area of interest academically with the need for more research and understanding in this space.
[00:13:03] How Hayley’s knowledge of her own neurodivergence helped her to understand the past challenges as well as the strengths she’d experienced in the workforce over her career.
Key Takeaways:
Receiving a late diagnosis allowed Hayley to understand both her struggles and strengths, particularly in rigid environments like formal education and structured workplaces where she's historically struggled.
Understanding the ADHD and the Autistic parts of her, she’s been able to create systems and structures that better align with her natural cognitive style.
Hayley emphasises the importance of focusing on her strengths, particularly creative and dynamic tasks while giving herself permission to find alternative solutions for tasks she struggles with, like those requiring sustained focus or repetition.
By recognising and working within her ‘zone of genius,’ she improves her satisfaction, positively impacting her well-being and business outcomes.
Hayley reflects on her career journey, noting how her neurodivergence, particularly her multi-passionate nature and hyper-focus, led her to change degrees four times before landing in psychology.
Challenges like dyscalculia affected Hayley's ability to pursue certain passions, such as astronomy, highlighting how difficulties in formal education settings can limit opportunities for neurodivergent individuals despite their strong interests.
Hayley entered psychology driven by a desire to understand both herself and the complexities of human behaviour.
Her psychology pursuit also helped her recognise that traditional work environments, such as hospital or corporate settings, didn’t align with her work style, leading her to pursue more fulfilling, non-traditional roles.
Micromanagement is one made traditional work environments unbearable for Hayley, leading to feelings of being stifled and causing significant anxiety. She struggled with the lack of autonomy in decision-making and the strict expectations of her time and creativity.
Hayley found detail-oriented tasks in certain roles overwhelming and unpleasant, making it difficult for her to stay engaged in those positions. She realised these tasks were a poor fit for her strengths and working style.
“Understanding my ADHD and the Autistic parts of me has really allowed me to start to create systems and structures that better align with my natural cognitive style. ”
[00:21:38] The strengths of ADHD in entrepreneurship and business ownership
Key Takeaways:
Research has highlighted several ADHD-related strengths, including entrepreneurship, creative problem-solving, and divergent thinking. Monique points out how these strengths align with Hayley’s experience of leveraging her neurodivergent traits to excel in entrepreneurship.
Hayley describes how, before fully transitioning into entrepreneurship, she pursued private practice as her last attempt to regain autonomy in her work. However, even private practice felt stifling.
In 2011, she created her first course as an attempt to diversify her work and express her creativity, a move uncommon among therapists at that time.
Hayley reflects on the traits that have been instrumental in her journey, such as hyperfocus, creativity, and dynamic thinking, which are highly valuable in entrepreneurship.
She highlights how her need for flexibility, a core aspect of her ADHD expression, often led to struggles in traditional clinical roles. In contrast, entrepreneurship has allowed her to create a work environment that aligns with her natural rhythm, offering a much-needed sense of ease and flow.
Starting in 2011, Hayley explored entrepreneurship through coaching, inspired by her love for high performance from her time as an athlete. She earned an ICF certification and began coaching one-on-one while also developing courses and online programs.
Hayley explains high performance as existing on a spectrum of human functioning, ranging from minus five to plus five with zero in the middle.
Traditional clinical work focuses on the minus five to zero range—helping people overcome mental health challenges.
In contrast, high performance operates in the zero to plus five zone, where individuals are thriving and aiming to enhance their success in various aspects of life. This concept applies to roles like CEOs, Fortune 500 leaders, and athletes, where the focus is elevating performance to the next level of achievement.
Hayley sees the ‘zone of genius’ as key to a strengths-based approach, especially in business. She emphasises leaning into what energises you while delegating or automating tasks that don’t.
Reflecting on education, she critiques its focus on mediocrity, pushing students to improve in areas they don't enjoy rather than developing their unique strengths. For her, it’s about focusing on what you’re great at and love rather than wasting energy on tasks that drain you.
[00:31:12] Strategies for managing rejection sensitivity and feeling like an imposter in this space.
Key Takeaways:
Hayley was driven by a desire to diversify her work, leaning into her strengths and interests. Coaching appealed to her as it allowed for a more forward-looking, action-oriented approach, which resonated with her as an ADHDer.
She sought to balance the emotional heaviness of alleviating suffering with work that felt innovative and energetic, aligning better with her natural energy and creativity.
Creating courses allowed her to hyper-focus on interesting topics while scaling her business without the draining nature of one-to-one client work.
Monique highlights the high risk of burnout in mental health professions due to constant exposure to others' suffering, especially for ADHDers, who often need variety to stay engaged and avoid repetitive work.
ADHDers tend to thrive when they can take on diverse projects, as this helps maintain engagement, provides novelty, and delivers the dopamine needed to stay motivated and fulfilled in their work.
Hayley ties several ADHD traits, like quick problem-solving, pivoting, and embracing change, to the strengths needed in entrepreneurship and business ownership.
“If you have a business or you’re in entrepreneurship, but you’re not selling anything, then you have a very expensive side hobby. It’s not a business. It’s not entrepreneurship unless you’re actually transacting and selling. You’re absolutely right—one of the big learning curves for me has been around, “How do I manage my RSD (rejection sensitivity) in the space of marketing and sales?”
One of Hayley’s biggest learning curves in business has been managing Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD) in marketing and sales, where rejection can cut very, very deep.
In business, rejection is common, with many more ‘no’s’ than ‘yes’s.’ For someone unprepared, the frequent rejection in marketing and sales can be overwhelming, causing avoidance to engage in these activities.
Through her experience with Therapists Rising, Hayley shares that many neurodivergent therapists excel at creating content for courses but struggle with marketing and selling due to fear of backlash, judgment, and self-doubt.
Many therapists have a course ready but hesitate to promote it, often sidetracked by pursuing additional certifications to avoid marketing and putting themselves out there.
Hayley’s big-picture thinking allows her to step out of the intensity of the minutia, keeping her focused on the larger mission. By anchoring in her “why,” she stays driven and undeterred by criticism.
Drawing from Viktor Frankl, she highlights that a strong ‘why’ helps weather rejections and self-doubt. By staying connected to the big picture, problems become solvable steps toward achieving the mission.
One of Hayley's biggest lessons has been the importance of surrounding herself with people going through similar experiences. Many in her community feel alone and consumed by self-judgment and doubt, but finding others who ‘get it’ can be transformative.
From an attachment perspective, having a safe space among peers gives people the confidence to take small risks they might not have otherwise. Being with those slightly further along in the journey provides inspiration and reassurance, fostering a sense of “If they can do it, so can I.”
Being part of a supportive community opens people to possibilities, while self-criticism and imposter syndrome close them off. It’s validating to recognise that many people feel like imposters, even if they seem to be doing okay or coping or competent on the outside. This struggle with feeling inadequate is a common, very human, normal experience.
Hayley emphasises that feeling like an imposter is a normal, unavoidable part of being human, particularly for those highly competent in their fields. As people become more knowledgeable, they often lose sight of the value their skills hold and fall into the ‘curse of competence.’ This can lead to imposter syndrome, where individuals continue to learn but avoid applying their knowledge, fearing failure or judgment.
Monique shares that both she and Michelle have found Compassion-Focused Therapy beneficial in their work with clients and in applying it to themselves.
Cultivating self-compassion is valuable when navigating doubts or criticisms, especially when pursuing entrepreneurship. These skills help with self-soothing during difficult experiences, such as facing rejection or self-doubt.
Monique explains that incorporating Compassion-Focused Therapy into your vision, mission, and ‘why’ can be powerful. Having an other-focused ‘why,’ such as helping a community or supporting others, can provide the courage to take the plunge. For her, it’s a mindset: “If I’m not doing this for me, I’m doing it for a purpose that aligns with my values.”
“I like compassion-focused therapy because it is focused on not just alleviating your own suffering through compassion but alleviating others’ suffering by taking compassionate action.”
Hayley highlights the importance of aligning compassion with valued, inspired action. Many therapists and service-oriented people deeply value leaving a positive impact on the world. However, if we become too entangled in self-judgments and limiting narratives, we risk getting in our own way and hindering our ability to serve and make a difference.
Hayley emphasises the importance of holding compassion in difficult moments, which she calls ‘space and grace.’ While compassion allows us to acknowledge and sit with our experiences, it shouldn't alter our path or make decisions for us. Compassion can exist, but it shouldn't drive the car, as it may lead us away from our values.
Since ‘you don't know what you don't know,’ Hayley emphasises the importance of seeking mentorship alongside finding a community. Mentors further along in their journeys can offer valuable guidance, share insights, and help others navigate or avoid potential challenges.
[00:50:35] Strengths of the Autistic brain and the AuDHD brain in entrepreneurship and business ownership.
Key Takeaways:
Hayley highlights the strengths of Autism and the AuDHDer brain:
The ability to think creatively and outside the box allows for innovative solutions and approaches that others may not consider (which encompasses the ADHD brain as well).
High energy and enthusiasm for interest-based tasks enable individuals to keep going, even when others might stop, leading to significant progress and success, especially in environments that reward quick action, thinking, and adaptability.
The ability to hyper-focus—to get deeply engaged in a task or deeply engaged in a particular area of interest—will lead to exceptional outcomes, especially in areas aligned with your strengths and interests.
The ability to see systems and structures, like, “This isn’t the most logical way to do this. Why are we doing it this way? Let’s do this instead.” While not Hayley’s strong suit, she mentions it’s one of her husband’s.
“The more systems and structures you have in your business is only going to mean greater success down the road, because things are going to work easier and more seamlessly and take a lot of pressure off you. ”
Monique notes that expecting anyone to excel at everything is unrealistic, particularly as a neurodivergent person. Teaming up with others can be helpful when working on projects or in business.
Identifying strengths and areas of work that feel boring or difficult can help neurodivergent people delegate tasks they don’t enjoy.
Collaborating with others who enjoy tasks that don’t align with your strengths can be highly beneficial. Monique highlights how body doubling and brainstorming with a partner can provide the support needed to overcome challenges or moments of uncertainty.
[00:55:45] Hayley’s tips for neurodivergent folk working in (or moving toward) this space.
Key takeaways:
Hayley shares these tips from her perspective of “These are the things that I have found really important in my journey.”
Building a supportive network is crucial. So, mentors, other business owners, even if they're not neurodivergent, as long as they're like-minded and can add to your experience, finding peers who really get it is invaluable, both from the sense of feeling validated and being supported, but also from the idea of this strength in numbers.
Technology helps manage tasks and reduce cognitive load, freeing you up to focus on areas in your zone of genius. So, explore “How can I leverage technology to align work processes with my strengths?” Consider leaning into things like:
Project management systems, like Trello and Asana.
Automation software, like Zapier.
Finding ways to integrate AI to support you in many different ways.
Delegate tasks that aren’t your strengths. Hayley suggests starting small, like hiring a virtual assistant for just a few hours a month, to handle tasks you’re less skilled at so you can focus on what you do best.
Embrace flexibility in your routine to prevent burnout and sustain productivity. Adjusting your tasks based on your energy and focus levels helps maintain long-term productivity while allowing for fluidity in your schedule.
Remember, as much as we want to hyperfocus, intense periods of hyperfocus can lend themselves to burnout. So:
How can you find regular breaks throughout day?
How can you move your body in really small ways?
How can you avoid sensory overload? How can you set up your environment so that it will not be completely draining (from a sensory perspective)?
“If you can, really spend time building that network up. So, as much as you can lean into ‘What is that network for you?’”
It's important to consider when you feel most naturally energised. If you're not a morning person, for example, adapting your schedule to work during times when your brain is more active—like for Monique, this is mid-morning or late at night—can help you maximise productivity, especially if you work for yourself.
Monique suggests thinking creatively about communication in business. Some neurodivergent people find phone calls draining, while others dislike email. Identify what drains you and feels more natural—working for yourself allows you to set your own rules.
Controlling your environment is a major benefit of self-employment, too. In corporate or government jobs, you're forced to adapt to rigid settings, which can be draining for Autistic individuals, especially with sensory challenges that lead to burnout.
Working from home reduces exhausting transitions, such as getting ready, commuting, dealing with distracting open-plan offices, and engaging in small talk, which can be draining.
Dealing with inefficiencies or things that don't make sense, especially when triggered by injustice, can be particularly challenging.
Monique highlights the flip side of working for yourself: it can be hard to switch off, especially if your business topic is your hyper-focus. You might end up working more, late at night, or thinking about work during breaks.
Many neurodivergent people deal with fatigue and chronic health conditions, making the typical full-time nine-to-five, five-day workweek unsustainable in the long run.
“One of the things that really drew me in is the idea of working smarter and not harder. If I can only see six clients a week, that’s not going to work for me financially. But I also can’t see more than six clients a week. What the hell am I going to do?
So the idea of ‘How can I get more bang for my buck?’ and the ability to create a business that gives you that ability of like, ‘Maybe I don’t have to do it in that one way. Maybe I can create diversity in the way that I make money and therefore alleviate some of that stress of having to work a certain amount of hours for a certain amount of pay.’”
[01:05:05] Closing: Stories that show how Hayley's brain works
Key takeaways:
At one point, Hayley was overwhelmed by the cognitive load of managing everything in her business. Her husband suggested creating an Asana board to get the tasks out of her head. Initially, this seemed like a great solution, but when the tasks were assigned back to her in the system, she felt even more overwhelmed. This story illustrates her constant push and pull between wanting structure and then feeling overwhelmed by it.
Hayley often hears from other neurodivergent therapists who thank her for being open about her journey. They share how knowing what Hayley has achieved makes them feel that it's possible for them, too. These moments of recognition and validation constantly remind her why she does what she does. If her "messy" approach to life can inspire others to take their own steps forward, that, for Hayley, defines a life well-lived.
Connect with Dr Hayley Kelly:
You can find Hayley through her website, Therapists Rising, or on Instagram @dr.hayleykelly
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